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Democratic debates: Democrats prepare for fifth debate after key impeachment witness says Trump directed Ukraine 'quid pro quo' in bombshell testimony

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Clark Mindock
New York
,Andrew Feinberg,Alex Woodward
Wednesday 20 November 2019 23:39 GMT
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Donald Trump reenacts conversation with Gordon Sondland after bombshell impeachment testimony

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Gordon Sondland has implicated a number of White House officials who were “in the loop” with Donald Trump's direction to withhold aid to Ukraine in an exchange for a meeting and a public statement announcing an investigation into the president’s political opponents.

The testimony came as Democrats were preparing to hold their fifth debate of 2020 in Atlanta, where they will undoubtedly be asked about the freshly sprung impeachment inquiry that has dominated headlines.

Mr Sondland, a US ambassador to the EU, affirmed that there was a so-called quid pro quo, dropping a bombshell testimony into another pivotal hearing in the House impeachment inquiry into the president’s alleged abuses of power in his dealings with Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky.

According to his testimony, Mr Sondland worked under the president’s order to work with Rudy Giuliani “not because we liked it but because it was the only constructive path” to building a relationship with a vulnerable Ukraine. In emails and other conversations with US officials — including Vice President Mike Pence, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Energy Secretary Rick Perry — Mr Sondland established a clear link from the president, through Giuliani, and efforts to engage Ukraine with investigations into the 2016 election and Burisma.

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Mr Trump told reporters outside the White House that he barely knows Mr Sondland, who he previously called a "great American", and that he seems like a “nice guy".

The president read from a stack of papers in his hand, which included, in capital letters, his recollection of a conversation with Mr Sondland in which Trump said "I WANT NOTHING. I WANT NOTHING. I WANT NO QUID PRO QUO."

White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham said that "the US aid to Ukraine flowed, no investigation was launched, and President Trump has met and spoken with President Zelensky. Democrats keep chasing ghosts."

Mr Pence and Mr Perry also released statements during the hearing denying Mr Giuliani’s influence in their dealings with Ukraine. They’ve refused to testify in the impeachment probe.

Mr Trump also lashed out at his Democratic opponents conducting the House impeachment inquiry, mocked key witnesses giving testimony for their sartorial choices and denied that the onset of a heart attack was what prompted his sudden trip to hospital on Saturday.

"These people are sick. They’re sick. And the press really in this country is dangerous. We don’t have freedom of the press in this country. We have the opposite. We have a very corrupt media," the president ranted from the Cabinet Room of the White House on Tuesday.

The inquiry heard from four witnesses on Tuesday who detailed the administration’s coercion of Ukraine.

Sondland, to Castor, on Holmes, who listened to a phone call between Trump and Sondland on investigations: "How many conversations has he had with the president? He probably hasn't had any ... Not only did I buy him lunch, I also provided entertainment."

From The Independent's Andrew Feinberg: "Castor is now asking why Sondland did not talk about the call he had with President Trump during his text message exchange with Ambassador Volker (after Volker said it was 'crazy' to link security assistance to investigations) in his opening statement. It’s an attempt to make Sondland seem unreliable but he batted it down pretty easily."

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 17:56

Nunes interrupts to say say it would help be helpful to have testimony from the whistle-blower and not "chase conspiracy theories that Democrats are blowing around."

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 17:59

Castor, House Republicans' counsel in these hearings, apparently ran out of questions before a long awkward pause and yielding back time before a 30-minute break.

Castor's line of questions tried to mangle Sondland's timeline and recollection of his meetings and communications with the White House that put everyone "in the loop" that Ukrainian aid was contingent on investigations.

But by turning to the email evidence, which CC'd several high-ranking officials, Sondland appeared to further implicate them, insisting they were all on board with the hold.

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 18:21

The Independent's Andrew Feinberg, who is at the hearing, just spoke with Republican Congressman Jim Jordan from Ohio:

I spoke to Jordan during the break, asked how things were going. “It’ll be fine. I think Steve [Castor] did a great job showing that this guy never had any direct communication from the president that any way suggests that there was anything linked to making an announcement about an investigation.”

When I pointed out that Sondland pretty clearly stated that everyone involved followed the president’s orders, he said: “No he didn’t — there was never any aid whatsoever — a meeting or a call — linked to an announcement from the Ukrainians.”

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 18:44

Back from break, Texas Republican John Ratcliffe is summarising Sondland's direct communications with the president but ignoring several testimonies that link Trump to investigations:

"Anything sinister about any of that?"

Sondland, smiling: "Not in the way you presented."

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 18:49

A report from The Independent's Andrew Feinberg from today's hearing:

Rep. Denny Heck, D-Washington: “This is the fifth of seven hearings. You may recall that JK Rowling wrote seven books in the Harry Potter series — there’s an enormous amount of plot revealed in the sixth and seventh books. So there’s much to come.”

“I think the two most important takeaways are clear and explicit affirmation of the existence of a quid pro quo, and the pervasive nature of the foreknowledge on the part of people throughout the administration — everyone was in the loop, quote endnote.”

On the GOP's strategy in its line of questioning, Heck says: “I gave up a little while ago on trying to understand their perspective ... tried very, very hard for a while, but this is very difficult, to sit and listen to how it is they’re approaching this. I’ll go to my grave not fully understanding this.”

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 18:53

Rudy is still watching:

But Pompeo is not. He apparently dug into a reporter who asked about it.

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 18:54

Congressman Jim Himes is asking about David Holmes' testimony which included his recollection of a phone call that Sondland had with Trump.

Sondland says that Trump told him that he “only cares about the big stuff.”

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 18:58

Jim Jordan getting fired up again, clearly frustrated with Sondland, who is smiling and laughing.

Jordan repeatedly asked Sondland when Zelensky made the announcement of the investigations and asks Sondland if he knows what a quid pro quo is.

Jordan: "None of that materialized."

No real room for any answers in there.

The Independent's Andrew Feinberg notes that Jordan "only used roughly half of the five minutes allotted to him. I’ve never seen Jim Jordan not use all the time available to him."

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 19:01

Congresswoman Terri Sewell asking Sondland directly if everyone in the chain of command knew what Giuliani was doing and whether he was able to accomplish what he wanted.

Sondland said he didn't know what he wanted.

Sewell: "You clearly would have, sir," if the president is directing Sondland to Giuliani for instruction.

Phil Thomas20 November 2019 19:07

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