Post Office Inquiry - live: CEO Nick Read says he was told ‘not to dig into past’ of Horizon IT scandal
The Post Office Horizon IT scandal led to hundreds of postmasters being wrongly prosecuted for theft and false accounting
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Post Office chief executive Nick Read has told the Horizon IT scandal inquiry that he was told he didn’t need to dig into the past details of sub-postmasters’ prosecutions when he joined the company.
Mr Read, who is leaving his post in March, explained that when he started as CEO in 2019 there was a sense that the Post Office needed to “move on” from the Horizon scandal. He told the inquiry that during his interview process dealing with litigation was not mentioned as part of the job.
He also told the inquiry that he didn’t appreciate the scale of the injustice faced by the postmasters when he joined the company in 2019.
Mr Read oversaw the Post Office’s response to legal action brought by wronged sub-postmasters and their compensation.
The inquiry heard last week about claims from a whistleblower of a “disgusting” culture at the Post Office that “starts at the top with Nick”.
The Post Office Horizon IT scandal led to hundreds of postmasters being wrongly prosecuted for theft and false accounting due to discrepancies caused by IT bugs in the system.
Read: I did not describe Post Office investigators as ‘untouchables’
Nick Read has denied describing a group of Post Office investigators as “untouchables”.
Former chairman Henry Staunton had told the inquiry both in person and as part of written evidence that Mr Read had used the term twice - once in a private meeting and once in a more public meeting.
Mr Staunton’s claim was backed up by the testimony of Mr Ishmail and Mr Jacobs, who both testified that Mr Read had described these Post Office personnel as “untouchables”.
However when these claims were put to Mr Read he said each time that these testimonies were “incorrect”.
He added: “That is not an expression that is used in the organisation, that is not an expression that is familiar to the organisation.”
Post Office management ‘don’t think postmasters are crooks'
Nick Read has denied that “all Post Office management think postmasters are crooks”.
Speaking at the Horizon IT inquiry, Mr Read was presented with a number of concerns raised previously by sub-postmasters.
He told lawyers: “I certainly don’t think all management are of that opinion, in fact I absolutely don’t think that at all.”
He told the inquiry this morning: “There will be a view that not every quashed conviction will be innocent postmasters. I think that the majority of the organistion would agree that the action that has been taken is absolutely the right action, whether there are guilty postmaters that will be exonerated is really no longer an issue.”
Inquiry hears evidence from former prosecutor of postmasters
The inquiry lawyers are now examining an email sent by former Post Office prosecutor Gary Thomas to Nick Read.
Mr Thomas claimed in his email that there were “targets for prosecutions and financial recovery targets” for those in the Post Office investigations team.
In his email, Mr Thomas said:“We even had a proceeds of crime unit within Post Office Ltd that ensured some of these individuals lost their homes and families.”
He continued:“My yearly objectives that were bonus worthy at the time were based on numbers of successful prosecutions and recovery amounts of money to the business.
“I had some instances of these postmasters committing suicide, which now sits somewhat on my conscious because of my employer. How do you think I deal with this and now actually sleep at night now knowing my actions that were backed and supported by my employer has affected the said postmasters but also the individuals you employed to conduct this role.
“Can I ask the question and enquiry why we have all been completely cast aside and left with not so much as a letter of communication or an apology whatsover?”
Mr Read has said he has “no recollection” of the correspondence from Mr Thomas.
Mr Read said there was a “lack of curiorisity” to find out if Mr Thomas’s claims were correct shown in the email exchanges.
‘Some postmasters were left behind in the pursuit of profit'
Nick Read has said that postmasters were “left behind in the pursuit of profit” as the Post Office struggled financially.
Mr Read told the Horizon IT inquiry that there was a “drive for network transformation and commercial sustainability” from 2016-2019.
He added: “In that drive, I believed that postmasters had been left behind.”
He referenced “the move from fixed fees for postmasters to variable payments” as one of the ways that postmasters were left behind.
Mr Read said: “It was my intention to refocus the organisation around...the relationship with the postmaster and its local communities. That was slightly at odds with where the [government] officials were, which was to ensure that we didn’t continue to spend money on the Post Office.
“I think there was an attitude to ringfence and ensure that the Post Office was a standalone business, without thinking through the implications of that for the postmasters,” he added.
Mr Read said that by 2020 “there was a growing need and desire by those who had been impacted by the scandal to get to the truth.”
Mr Read said that closure would not be achieved for the Post Office victims if the inquiry merely looked forward to assess how the scandal could not happen again. Permanent secretary at the Cabinet Office, Alex Chisholm, had suggested a shorter inquiry, Mr Read said.
Nick Read: I was told not to dig into the past
Nick Read has told the inquiry that when he joined the Post Office in 2019 the issue of postmasters’ prosecutions was in the past. He was told: “Nothing like this is happening [now] or could happen - we need to look forward”.
The prosecutions ended in 2015, but a significant judgement was handed down to the Post Office in 2019 by Justice Fraser. The judgement detailed how the Post Office needed to change, and how it should offer compensation to wronged postmasters.
Mr Read added: “I don’t think the scale and enormity of the scandal was brought to life before me because there wasn’t a realisation in the business of what needed to be done.”
Mr Read said when he joined in 2019 the Post Office legal team had just started work to understand the implications of losing in the courts to the sub-postmasters.
Mr Read, reflecting on the beginning of his role, said: “There were a multitude of different priorities that were required in the first 4-6 weeks.
“I was told that I did not need to dig into the details of what had happened at the Post Office in the past.”
‘I didn’t realise the scale of injustice that postmasters faced'
Nick Read has told the Horizon IT inquiry that he didn’t realise the scale of the injustice that the postmasters faced when he took on his role as CEO.
In a statement to the inquiry, he said: “It is clear to me now that I did not have a proper appreciation at this time of the scope or magnitude of the injustice that the postmasters had faced.
“My understanding was that I was joining a business that was challenged.”
He told the inquiry that he was determined to “shift the culture” at the Post Office, saying: “The Post Office would not exist without postmasters and from my first day as CEO I was determined to make this shift in the cultural mindset of the organisation. The findings from the litigation confirmed that was the right direction.”
However he said that he “didn’t need to dig into the details of what had happened at Post Office in the past as this conduct had ended.”
“I didn’t have experience of managing litigation,.. a compensation scheme, or public inquiry”, he told lawyers.
Mr Read said “there was a degree of denial” following the Post Office’s loss in the courts against the sub-postmasters.
Nick Read: I wasn’t told CEO role would involve dealing with litigation
Nick Read has told the inquiry that, when he was interviewed for his role as Chief Executive, the postmaster litigation and need for huge IT overhaul were not mentioned.
In a witness statement, Mr Read said: “The job specification did not mention the litigation, and as far as I recall it was not mentioned during the interview process.
“The job specification also did not state that Post Office needed to oversee a large scale and complex IT transformation project…As far as I recall, this was also not mentioned to me in the interview process.
“I had no indication that a significant part of my role would be a profound cultural change of the scale needed, dealing with the litigation or its implications, or in delivering a large-scale IT transformation”.
During Mr Read’s time at the Post Office, he had to move the company away from the Horizon IT system to an alternative process.
Post Office chief executive Nick Read has begun his testimony at the Horizon IT inquiry.
He is being questioned over the nature of this witness statements, some of which are given in his official role at the Post Office and one of which is given on a personal basis.
Mr Read is also being questioned on his previous business experience before he joined the Post Office. He had worked as the chief executive officer of Nisa Retail previously.
Sir Wyn Williams tells inquiry that a former sub-postmaster passed away last week
Sir Wyn Williams has opened the inquiry this morning by saying that a former sub-postmaster Mrs Gillian Blakey has passed away.
She was a sub-postmaster in Lincolnshire. During her period there, shortfalls appeared in the accounts due to faulty data from the Horizon IT system.
Her husband was prosecuted over the faults and she lost her job.
She had not received the additional compensation to which she was entitled, Sir Wyn Williams said.
How long with Nick Read give evidence for?
Post Office chief executive Nick Read will face three days of grilling at the Horizon IT inquiry.
His first day is today, starting at 10am and going on till 16:30, and he will be back on Thursday and Friday as well.
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