Post Office Inquiry - live: CEO Nick Read ‘surprised’ at 33 police investigations involving branches this year
The Post Office Horizon IT scandal led to hundreds of postmasters being wrongly prosecuted for theft and false accounting
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Post Office chief executive Nick Read has said that he was “surprised” to find out in June this year that there are 33 police investigations involving Post Office branches, spanning some 22 forces.
Mr Read is being questioned for a second day at the Horizon IT scandal inquiry today.
He told the inquiry yesterday that he was told he didn’t need to dig into the past details of sub-postmasters’ prosecutions when he joined the company.
Mr Read, who is leaving his post in March, explained that when he started as CEO in 2019 there was a sense that the Post Office needed to “move on” from the Horizon scandal.
He also told the inquiry that three people were currently under further investigation by the Post Office and external agencies, following allegations made by victims of the Horizon scandal.
Mr Read oversaw the Post Office’s response to legal action brought by wronged sub-postmasters and their compensation. He is giving evidence for the rest of the week.
The Post Office Horizon IT scandal led to hundreds of postmasters being wrongly prosecuted for theft and false accounting due to discrepancies caused by IT bugs in the system.
Nick Read quizzed about role of retail director Tracy Marshall
Mr Read is being quizzed about why Retail Engagement Director Tracy Marshall is a corporate witness for the Post Office, when she was previously implicated in problems with remote access.
An email emerged during the inquiry showing Ms Marshall had knowledge that postmasters’ accounts could be access remotely back in 2011, at the heart of the Horizon scandal.
Despite this Ms Marshall is a corporate witness on behalf of the Post Office to the inquiry.
Mr Read was asked whether he thought there was a conflict when “she is on one view implicated in the remote access issue, and yet she is a corporate witness for the Post Office.”
Mr Read explained: “ The issue emerged in the Summer. This was the last time the inquiry was sitting, and these emails emerged.
“We invited Tracy to step back from her day to day role. She was very clear that she was unaware of remote access being actioned. She understood it was possible but not aware it was actioned in any way.”
Mr Read continued: “A line manager suggested to her that she take a step back from postmaster facing activity, so that confidence could be retained.”
Ms Marshall is due to give evidence to the Post Office inquiry in coming weeks.
Nick Read: It was peculiar we could never find where wronged postmasters' money had gone
Nick Read has said he was frustrated that the Post Office couldn’t get to the bottom of where money paid by wrong subpostmasters to the company had gone.
Many wrong subpostmasters dipped into their own savings to make up shortfalls that showed up on their accounts due to dodgy Horizon data.
Mr Read spoke about how the Post Office had employed a number of forensic accountants to get to the bottom of where this money had gone.
He told the inquiry: “It seemed peculiar to me that we were unable to get a fix, even with caveats as to its level of accuracy, so that we could at least in part give people some confidence that we understood the size and scale of this issue or got to the bottom of it.”
CEO admits wording of new contract for postmasters is ‘heavy-handed’ with talk of interviews under caution
The inquiry is examining the new contract for postmasters, which details the role of the Post Office’s investigations team.
The contract explains that the Post Office’s investigations team can interview postmasters under caution if they suspect a crime has been committed.
The contract explains: “The main job of the Investigation Division is to investigate, or help the police to investigate, criminal offences against the Post Office, British Telecommunications and the Department of National Savings, the Investigation Division does NOT enquire into matters where crime is not suspected.”
It goes on: “Although they comprise the minority of all Investigation Division crime investigations, there are many cases where the possible (or even direct suspicion) arises that persons employed on Post Office business may be involved. Officers of the Investigation Division conduct interviews about these suspected offences and they are required to observe the same code of conduct when obtaining evidence as that laid down for Police Officers.
“This provides for an officer investigating a criminal offence to question any person, whether suspected or not, from whom he thinks that useful information may be obtained. As soon as the Investigation Division officer has evidence which would afford reasonable ground for suspecting that a person has committed an offence, he must caution him before asking any questions about that offence.”
Chief executive Nick Read has admitted that the contract is “heavy-handed”, telling the inquiry: “I think the wording is heavy handed in terms of the way in which it is described. I don’t think it reflects the way that we conduct investigations.
“It’s not consistent with the way that the A&CI [investigations] team operate. It’s not consistent with the way that we support postmasters when they have issues.”
He admitted that the wording of the contract should be changed, explaining: “The language and the way that it is constructed is not helpful and not reflective of the way that the Post Office is operating today.”
Nick Read: I was surprised to learn that 22 police forces are carrying out investigations involving Post Offices
Nick Read has said that he was “surprised” at discovering in June that 22 police forces were carrying out investigations involving Post Offices.
Mr Read told the inquiry: “I was surprised at the number of law enforcement agencies that were engaging with us, and the scale of the 22 and the 33.
“It caused pause for thought, primarily because the team in A&CI [investigations team] is massively stretched.”
The Post Office’s internal investigations team were covering “both internal investigations of senior colleagues, assurance work on loss recovery and discrepancies, and cooperation with law enforcement.”
Mr Read said: “This felt like considerably large amounts of work and we wanted to make sure that it was being administered properly”.
Mr Read said he did not know what work had been done recently to make sure that the Horizon data that was being provided to the police was not faulty.
IT company Fujistu had previously raised concerns with Mr Read that the Horizon data might not be reliable even in 2024. The company’s CEO was raising concerns about the Post Office’s ongoing requests for Fujistu to cooperate with law enforcement investigations.
33 police investigations involving Post Offices in June this year
22 police forces were carrying out investigations involving Post Offices across 33 police investigations in June this year, the inquiry has heard.
Notes from a meeting on the 26th June, written by the Post Office’s director of assurance and complex investigations John Bartlett, were shown to the inquiry.
The paper was titled ‘The passing of material to law enforcement’. It explained: “There are currently 22 police forces requesting or awaiting Horizon-based evidence across 33 police investigations. To provide this information A&CI [investigations team] will need to draw on Horizon data and often provide transaction analysis. The current approach is that Board will need to be approached in the majority of these matters as and when the data is able to be shared.”
The paper was asking to speed up the process of providing information to the police by bypassing the Board’s approval. It said that there were no longer any faults with the Horizon system data at this time.
The paper read: “Proactively and reactively supplied information will have differing profiles due to historic technology issues. The version of Horizon that was considered at fault in the Horizon IT scandal was replaced in October 2019. In 2020, known errors and bugs identified in the Horizon issues Judgement formed part of a review by KPMG of the system and found to not be prevalent in the system.”
Mr Read told the inquiry: “There was some surprise at the scale of the requests. I think we were of the opinion that it was in the ones and twos in terms of requests for this information. Therefore a bigger understanding of the picture was requested.”
Nick Read: Post Office should not be involved in running compensation schemes
Chief executive Nick Read has told the Horizon IT inquiry that the Post Office should not have been involved in the compensation schemes for wronged postmasters.
On day two of his evidence to the inquiry, Mr Read is picking up a topic that was touched on yesterday. He told the inquiry that: “We have done everything that we can build independence into the schemes”.
But he added: “There was always going to be difficulty with the Post Office administering compensation because of the level and trust and confidence that many of the victims will have with the Post Office.”
Who is Post Office chief executive Nick Read?
Post Office chief executive Nick Read has been at the Post Office for five years. He is due to step down in March 2025 and has taken time away from his role to prepare for the Horizon IT inquiry.
Interim chief operating officer Neil Brocklehurst has been filling in as an acting chief executive.
Mr Read has previously appeared before MPs to defend his management of the Post Office. However in February, the business and trade committee expressed a lack of confidence in his leadership, accusing him of giving misleading evidence.
Over the course of the inquiry and parliamentary hearings, Mr Read’s evidence has often clashed with that of former Post Office chairman Henry Stauton.
Mr Read had been investigated over misconduct allegations but an external report, released earlier this year, cleared him of wrongdoing.
Welcome to day two of Nick Read’s evidence to the Horizon IT inquiry
Welcome to day two of CEO Nick Read’s evidence to the Horizon IT scandal inquiry.
Mr Read is due up at 10am this morning. He told the inquiry yesterday that he was not made aware of the “scale and enormity” of the Horizon IT scandal before taking the top job.
Mr Read joined long after the events which sparked the scandal, whereby more than 900 subpostmasters were prosecuted for stealing, based on incorrect information from an IT system known as Horizon.
But when he became chief executive in 2019, litigation between a group of 555 subpostmasters and the Post Office, in which the company agreed to pay £58m in compensation, was just coming to a head.
He said that, early into the role of chief executive, he was told by the Post Office’s general counsel Ben Foat: “I did not need to dig into the details of what had happened at Post Office in the past as this conduct had ended.”
Post Office boss told ‘not to dig into the past’, Horizon IT inquiry hears
Three individuals are currently under investigation by the Post Office and outside agencies over conduct in Horizon IT scandal, CEO Nick Read said
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