'Like Thatcher, we won't back down'

Can Stephen Byers, the Transport Secretary, deliver his pledge to improve Britain's creaking railway system? Here he talks to Colin Brown, our political editor, about how he intends to do it.

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The Transport Secretary, Stephen Byers, today warns unions and Labour MPs opposing the Government's radical plans for reforming the railways and Britain's beleaguered public services that the pace of change will not be slowed down.

Mr Byers ignores the wrath of the old Labour left, who claim New Labour reforms are losing support, and says Tony Blair should emulate Margaret Thatcher by refusing to back down over radical reforms in his second term of office.

Speaking in uncompromising terms to The Independent on Sunday, Mr Byers – the most Blairite minister in the Cabinet – makes it clear that the modernisers around Mr Blair are ready for a fight with the unions and the Labour MPs who protested behind closed doors to the Prime Minister this week.

Describing the battle as "unfinished business", Mr Byers says the unions avoided a row before the election, but the time is right for that debate now. And he says it is a "once-in-a-generation opportunity" to reform the public services which should not be thrown away.

And Mr Byers gives unequivocal backing to his close friend Alan Milburn, the Health Secretary, over the introduction of more private sector management into the NHS – a plan condemned as "mad" this week by Frank Dobson, the former health secretary.

Q: Labour MPs are upset at the pace of change. Would it not be wise to slow down?

A: No. I am absolutely clear about this. This is not the time for consolidation, for standing still, for marking time. I believe where we are politically at the moment it is absolutely the right time to push ahead with the reform and modernisation of our public services. And this is not going to be easy. I think we have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to change our public services for good.

I think we are at a very interesting stage now because since 11 September there has been a lack of political definition, but it's now coming into far tighter focus and it will be around the debate on public services. The worry many of us have is that the easy option will be to say "put in the invest-ment – but do we need to link that to reform?" I don't believe we will get the improvements we need to have if we stop now.

Q: But the GMB union placed advertisements saying the NHS risked becoming another Railtrack.

A: That's why it's important to take these arguments on. It is an over-simplification of what we are about. Whether it's Railtrack or the private sector's involvement in the health service, it's about reform of management. It's about making sure in all of this of what will improve the quality of public services involved. It's about the importance of political definition.

We have to define more clearly what a second-term Labour government is going to achieve. I compare it to the second term of the Thatcher government in '83-'87, which was the Thatcher government that made fundamental changes, and devastated communities like my constituency on Tyneside.

There were the big changes to the trade unions in '84; she set up the miners deliberately before the '85 strike; and the first privatisation of BT. It was all big stuff. There were huge divisions in the Tory Party and questions about whether this is the right thing to do.

This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity that we have to make a difference to our country.

Q: Downing Street has appointed John Birt to advise on transport. Isn't this all just spin?

A: I think John Birt will do a good job in long-term strategic thinking. I am very happy to have an additional person doing that work. I want to concentrate on delivering by the next election... Spin will not help the person on the 7.15 from Guildford. This is one of the things we have learned from the cauldron of government. You cannot deceive people about the quality of the services they are getting. They know from their own personal experience.

Q: Have services got worse under Labour?

A: In railways there are certain aspects that are worse. I wouldn't say that across the board. In London and the South-east there is a huge problem with overcrowding. There is a simple explanation for that – there are 1m more people going to work. That has an impact on the railways. That has got worse. There is worse overcrowding.